Curse

Mhydrian · Aug 23, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.

asdar · Aug 23, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

First off there were ways to counter enchantments from single removal to chilblains.

Secondly at it's height enchantment builds didn't demolish any builds the way NR does. Just because a team has a full set of enchantments on doesn't make it so degen's don't work or even make it so spikers aren't dangerous. If they remove NR completely ranger will still be valued.

The biggest downfall to spike teams is NR, the biggest downfall to hex builds is NR, the biggest downfall to smite teams is NR. Even condition based teams are less effective because of NR. Enchantment teams didn't ruin anything and all builds were viable against them. They added an element of complexity to the game whereas NR removes from the complexity.

David Lionmaster · Aug 23, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

ok. Nature Renewal is a spirit that strips enchantments and causes casters to need twice as much time to cast....essentially it removes enchantments from the field of battle. Most of the community views this as overpowered(because the majority of builds are designed around enchantments) and wants to Nerf said skill to hell until it is useless(like the ranger is supposed to be). And instead of spending their time online trying to come up with a valid counter build for the Spirit Spamming teams they sit on forums bitching about how it needs to be nerfed. Spirit Spammer teams continue to dominate the Hall because only a select few players have thought of counter builds for it....and they aren't sharing.

on a side note...yes I agree Nature Renewal *APPEARS* overpowered and I wouldn't give a damn if it was nerfed or not...other than the fact that the community seems to call for a nerf for any build they can't counter with any 8 random skills.

dont forget hexes, it removes all hexes and makes them twice as long to cast too, which really sucks for my necro, which half of his skills are hexes.

Quebec Osti · Aug 23, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambjo

First of all, W/R with tiger's fury is stupid. Way to waste 5 energy, ruin any chance you had of cunning spiking, and generally screwing your versatility while wasting a secondary class and attributes.

Not gonna start the argument again... I agree with you, frenzy is the way to go most of the time... But on some warrior builds, TF can be fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambjo

Ok, now that I have that out of the way: Only a stupid spirit spammer wouldn't bring a defensive stance. You got lucky, there's no competition in tombs anymore anyway.

Thats why I bring Irresistible, gryphon sweep, devastating, heavy...
He use his stance?? knockdown... He stop using it?? knowdowned again..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambjo

I don't know why I bothered replying in the first place. You go on beleiving that a skill that counters 1/4 of the games other skills isn't overpowered. While you're at it, lets buff energy drain and signet of humility. Thumbs up to you, smart guy.

There, I totaly agree with you... NR IS op... It DOES have counters, but these arent efficient enough and that is why we are stuck with a metagame not evolving at all.

Traylorre · Aug 23, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

We hold halls alot... btw Tiger's Fury Axe W/R is very effective (not "stupid")

Natures Renewal being overpowered? perhaps... but until there is more effective enchant-removal you -need- Natures Renewal

Spirit Spam.... I can't stop laughing --- you think the spirit killed your team? No... its the other skills and how they are applied that serve you... but oft times people have no clue what hit them and see lots of the same spirit -- and then hazard that "You lame spirit spammers" but just what is so lame about it?

OR

We sacrfice a precious slot for Primal Echoes to counter Sig of Judge builds ( a build with way too many signets in it)... and when we serve such a build in their face they whine that they're better players etc etc, but that we were lucky *roll eyes* for bring PE

Here's a hint -- don't make a build that can be defeated by 1 skill and half-competent teams

Timoz · Aug 23, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.

I've tried saying this before people seem to ignore the fact, if you nerf one thing it paves the way for others. (cant wait for the summer update will be damn hilarius)
Enchantment stacked teams ftw...

asdar · Aug 23, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I'd never call a team that wins repeatedly unskilled. I started this thread because I respected their win streak.

I do think that NR Is overpowered and that enchantment stacking didn't ruin the game but rather made it more complex.

Quebec Osti · Aug 23, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.

Decreasing the power of every damn enchantments would be the dumbest thing to do... They need to buff oher enchant removals (or add new ones) at the same time they nerf NR. That make more sense...

Third Quarter · Aug 23, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

If memory serves, NR (the guild) uses multiple Rangers running Incendiary Arrows as their elite.

Incendiary Arrows interrupts even if the arrow itself is evaded (via Aegis or whatever), so they can spam interrupts on a Ghostly forever, and the only thing you can do is kill the rangers.

Maagus · Aug 23, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traylorre

We hold halls alot... btw Tiger's Fury Axe W/R is very effective (not "stupid")

Natures Renewal being overpowered? perhaps... but until there is more effective enchant-removal you -need- Natures Renewal

Spirit Spam.... I can't stop laughing --- you think the spirit killed your team? No... its the other skills and how they are applied that serve you... but oft times people have no clue what hit them and see lots of the same spirit -- and then hazard that "You lame spirit spammers" but just what is so lame about it?

OR

We sacrfice a precious slot for Primal Echoes to counter Sig of Judge builds ( a build with way too many signets in it)... and when we serve such a build in their face they whine that they're better players etc etc, but that we were lucky *roll eyes* for bring PE

Here's a hint -- don't make a build that can be defeated by 1 skill and half-competent teams

I have never said that only spirit spam has killed our team. I always bow to the team that has beaten us with not so common build or because they were simply better and I try to learn from them.
But I will not bow to the cookie cutter build with spirits. I admit they have beaten us but that is all. No learning, no thanks for good game. I don´t say that these players are not skilled (however pure putting spirits doesn´t require any gaming skill at all, only the additional things, so only by clicking on some spirits without thinking when it use, how it use, you manage to destroy all opponent´s enchantment/hexes, make his casters/monks and physical dmg useless) but when I meet some good players which I have seen before and see that they have become rangers with spirits just to follow the trend and just for making some fame, it makes me sad.
As I said, we have some counter against them and we manage to defeat some of them but even when we defeat them I still don´t enjoy the game.
Can you answer me one question ? Why is the ranger build so common and used by top guilds and teams if it is so easily countered ?
Today we have met some necro team using fertile season, zephyr, etc. I don´t mind that, they were just good and using unusual build. They haven´t used their spirits as the basic element of their team.
This is what annoys me. When anyone build the whole team on one thing and is hardly counterable. Pure smitting team can be defeated, pure spike team can be defeated, how is it that pure spirit team cannot ? The team should be more versatile so it can counter different strategies. The single-track teams should be easily countered.

Ensign · Aug 23, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

Natures Renewal is one of a few ways to effectively counter these ridiculous stacked enchantment builds. You change NR you have to decrease the power of enchantments across the board as well.

That's my biggest fear about upcoming Nature's Renewal nerfs - as ridiculous as that skill is, I'd rather play in this environment, with Nature's Renewal smashing all enchantment and hex based builds, than the one we had before, where buff stacking ruled the day. Bah, I guess we'll see, right?

Peace,
-CxE

Mhydrian · Aug 23, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Lionmaster

dont forget hexes, it removes all hexes and makes them twice as long to cast too, which really sucks for my necro, which half of his skills are hexes.

It also sucks when a necro decrease my attack speed by HALF at will....the same applied to you and thats not FAIR

cry me a river

salja Wachi · Aug 23, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

i have a feeling if there is a nerf at all (which i am not convinced there should be) then it should only be making NR an elite skill.

Hiawatha · Aug 23, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

It also sucks when a necro decrease my attack speed by HALF at will....the same applied to you and thats not FAIR

cry me a river

Easily dealt with, which can't be said for _all_ the casters affected by NR

<3

Imp · Aug 23, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

It also sucks when a necro decrease my attack speed by HALF at will....the same applied to you and thats not FAIR

cry me a river

Remove hex, inspired hex, smite hex, any of those is an option. That one necro skill is not making you attack 1/2 slower AND your teamates is it? I'm sure signet of midnight will piss you off more if you don't even know how to remove a hex/condition.

As for natrues, it IS OP, sure it was put into the game, but there will always be a broken skill either you like it or not. This skill is an ELITE with the gold trim or not, thats why it should be an elite. You Spirit Spammers are just crying because you won't be able to spam the hell out of this skill with oathshot.

And I don't want to make rangers useless, nor do I want NR to become useless, I think it just classifies as an elite because of what it does, not because of how it is used.

Quebec Osti · Aug 24, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imp

As for natrues, it IS OP, sure it was put into the game, but there will always be a broken skill either you like it or not. This skill is an ELITE with the gold trim or not, thats why it should be an elite. You Spirit Spammers are just crying because you won't be able to spam the hell out of this skill with oathshot.

Making it elite wouldnt fix the problem imho...

Ranger1 has oat shot[E]
Ranger2 has Arcane mimicry and nature's renewal[E]

Hiawatha · Aug 24, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quebec Osti

Making it elite wouldnt fix the problem imho...

Ranger1 has oat shot[E]
Ranger2 has Arcane mimicry and nature's renewal[E]

Or they could both have Arcane Mimicry

"Oat shot" sound skinda yummy! =)

KonohaFlash · Aug 24, 2005, 03:33 AM // 03:33

sigh... ensign, would you mind sharing your healing ball teambuild? i have a feeling it's about to make a comeback

Van the Warrior · Aug 24, 2005, 03:35 AM // 03:35

sometimes with fertile you can spike someone with the X amount of health fertile gives simply by driving them out of fertiles circle while they are already taking damage...ive had people die instantly after being forced out by a ward against X or maelstrom or meteor or such...but fertile can be used as an offensive spell too if there was a way to remove your own spirits from a playing field...fertile would be a nice spike

Leddy · Aug 24, 2005, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asrial

What about....

2 N/R's
3 N/Mo's
2 Me/Mo's
1 55/105 Mo/X

.

This is just a quick.. "hey, that sounds cool" idea. It requires an advanced team of number crunchers.

In the beginning, the 55/105 monk gets set up and runs off.

The rest of the group swarm the group of spirits and clustering spammers. The 2 N/R's drop Edge of Extinction (the 2nd is to protect against disruption). The 3 N/Mo's start preparing Death Nova and start sacrificing health to allow for suicide. The moment the first N drops, the Me/Mo's with max fast casting toss Vengeance onto the dead N's. The N's then use Contemplation of Purity (took a while to find this) at which point they die again (Vengeance is an enchantment and CoP removes all enchantments from you.. so you die again). By now, you SHOULD have a pretty massive chain reaction as there's been 6 deaths pretty damn quick.. which is most likely going to be 10 deaths in quick succession (the N/R's and Me/Mo's). The 55/105 monk is just to insure that your team wins, in case they're caught in range of an Edge of Extinction. Their damage is nullified to 5.

Thoughts?

Dunno if you can do enough damage quick enough.

Also, i reckon THE nerf that would be fair is to make "Spirits" what they should be: a spirit. That would mean, that we can run through them, as if they didn't exist. That would stop the path blocking.

You can't say NR's not balanced because it affects their own team as well. The real problem with spirits is that they aren't spirits!